rewritefate:

juliabohemian:

philosopherking1887:

illwynd:

me: seeing a post where thor fans insult loki and loki fans and say they don’t want thor to ever interact with loki on screen again

and loki fans replying by insulting thor and thor fans and saying they don’t want thor to ever interact with loki on screen again

i think neither of y’all actually understand your “fave” character much do you

I understand the Loki fans’ POV far more, but I still can’t get behind the “Thor has only been bad for him and he should extricate himself from his relationship with Thor entirely” attitude.

I’m just repeating what @illwynd has said before, but: watch how they interact in Thor: The Dark World. Thor trusts Loki, and Loki lives up to that trust. Thor swears up and down that he doesn’t trust Loki, but he’s full of it. Watch his actions. He trusts Loki. That movie shows Thor and Loki working together, fighting together, trusting each other, neither sacrificing his individuality to the other’s demands. Their plan takes advantage of Loki’s distinctive talents: the ability to cast illusions and lie convincingly; the unexpected double-cross. Even his heroic self-sacrifice is very much in his own style: while (apparently fatally) impaled, he has the ingenuity and presence of mind to use his proximity to turn on Kurse’s own black hole grenade.

The mutual trust, the casual bickering, the cooperative strategic use of their complementary abilities: that, we can imagine, is what their relationship was like before Thor’s selection as heir caused his head to swell to the size we see in Thor 1.

I think for me personally…I would say that up until the end of TDW I was on board with Loki and Thor emerging as a unit. Because it was that relationship that drew me in to begin with. Two things changed my position: Thor’s treatment of Loki in Ragnarok and Chris Hemsworth’s attitude towards the previous Thor films and the franchise in general. Both rubbed me the wrong way. The second made me realize that if CH felt a certain way about Loki, that his attitude would inevitably show through in any interaction between their characters from that point on. It made me wonder if perhaps the only chance Loki has for genuine recovery is to get away from Thor altogether.

When someone is actively trying to recover from trauma, they are usually advised to cut ties with anyone who is either not in favor of their recovery or actively working against it. Ragnarok Thor qualifies on both accounts. When someone is in a dysfunctional relationship with another person and tries to change the status quo, the other party often resists in order to maintain that status quo. And that’s not even addressing the fact that Thor has yet to acknowledge Loki’s trauma. But that is the basis for my position on the matter.

I’m afraid that the MCU won’t recognized the dysfunctional dynamic between Thor and Loki and still continue with that “brotherly” relationship in Ragnarok. I rather have Thor not to interact with Loki again in TV series than seeing their dysfunctional relationship that are presented in Ragnarok continue (even though I really want to see Thor and Loki to reconciled). It’s the best for both of them.

I think for a true reconciliation, there needs to be some acknowledgement on Thor’s part of Loki’s pain and his role in contributing to it, which is something we never got in the course of the films. Thor’s needs to recognize that Loki’s feelings, perspectives, and strengths are real and have value, even if it means Loki won’t always be exactly the type of brother Thor wants. Thor and Loki need to have a conversation like the one Gamora and Nebula had at the end of GOTG2, but I don’t see the MCU ever giving us that.

And from a behind-the-scenes standpoint, I really think CH resented TH’s popularity and played a big role in the way Loki was degraded in TR. And I think TH may have felt stung by that. I think creatively speaking both would prefer to take their characters in different directions- CH doing more Thor with TW and TH wanting to explore Loki’s character in more dramatic depth, so separating the two characters for a while makes the most sense.

This whole thread is really important and explains my conflict over choosing between A) “Thor and Loki are an inextricable unit and mutually beneficial and both fucked up in discrete ways by Odin’s toxic parenting” and B) “said toxic parenting makes exposure to Thor generally worse for Loki than exposure to Loki is for Thor.” It explains that conflict really well.

You can’t really analyze either character OR both as a unit without being deeply informed and aware about the ENTIRE dysfunctional family dynamic. More than any other Marvel protags, Thor and Loki can’t be divorced from their context and fully understood.

If you try to, you get half-assed, ignorant opinions, such as that by a certain director who said that because as princes they experience certain social privileges, we “shouldn’t be concerned” about the trauma Thor and Loki have both undergone.

I also agree that CH’s resentments toward TH have been embarrassingly apparent lately (TH is honestly, in general, just a more accomplished actor) and that it’s in some ways disintegrated the legendary bond between their characters for me, which is quite sad.

// Amber, what are your thoughts on the confirmed Loki series on Disney streaming?

AHEM okay SO! I am so excited and hopeful to SEE:

–Potential to tastefully retcon some of the damaging, clownish “whiny white rich boy twink” characterization in Ragnarok (???? i have literally seen these terms used by Waititi stans and i am just like uhhh have we all been sleeping through the whole “Loki is a child of an imperialist colony of Asgard that Odin treats as subhuman and Loki has internalized racism” thing), which has been too easily “explained away” as “Chaotic Neutral Loki.” Not really guys, while I agree Chaotic Neutral is absolutely Loki’s truest alignment, that’s not interchangeable with “constant brunt of jokes often centered on the effects of genuine trauma.”
–Potential to resurrect the character from the dead (PLEASE) post-infinity War.
–Potential to more fully exploit the character’s role as a gray-amoral antihero and Trickster, capable of working both against and FOR the “good” guys (such as the Avengers) without the guilt and sanctimony frequently exhibited toward him for not fitting the prescribed role of “hero” BY the so-called “heroes” who often do just as bad or worse things but it’s “okay” because they’re the “good” guys. Basically I can’t wait to see a narrative that centers on Loki by Loki’s own terms.
–For that reason I actually hope we don’t see much of Thor in this series. Thor tends to overshadow Loki and while I like Loki and Thor both best when they are with each other, being complementary halves of a whole entity, I think proximity to Thor is rarely good for Loki’s mental, emotional, or physical wellbeing.
–Potential to explain, and fully, certain loopholes between The Dark World and Ragnarok, such as how the hell he survived being impaled by Kurse, when he clearly actually was injured (illusions cannot be run through, they’re just glamours that solid objects pass through and reveal as tricks).
–Potential for further flashbacks into Thor and Loki’s childhood, fleshing out their dynamic with each other and with their parents.
–Frigga cameos in said flashbacks???? MAMA! ;A; ❤
–Please God do not make Loki enter a romance with Amora or Lorelei (nothing against either character, Amora in particular is mega awesome, but I have no interest in seeing forced heteronormative romances with characters who are so SIMILAR to Loki and will only bring out the worst in him.
–Please God DO show romances or flirtations confirming Loki’s queerness/bisexuality.
–GENDERFLUID. LOKI. CONFIRM THIS COMICS CANON. LOKI. IN. FEMALE. FORM. RIGHT. NOW. LADY LOKI RIGHT NOW. NOW!!!!!
–Loki doing a thousand million different comedic and clever and cutthroat disguises, shape shifting!!!!!!
–LOKI SHOWING THAT LOKI IS A HYPER-COMPETENT SORCERER ON TIER WITH DR. STRANGE, NOT A LAUGHINGSTOCK PISSBABY THAT THOR HAS TO RESCUE FROM A PORTAPOTTY
–Finally maybe some scenes of Loki interacting with Thanos’s other “children” like Nebula and Gamora. Dare I say it, maybe even scenes of Loki’s mistreatment by Thanos thanks to people like Ebony Maw (since it’s on Disney, I doubt they’ll ever go into as graphic of detail as I imagine his torture being, but I’d like to have something concrete to point out to Loki naysayers, to show that no, I’m not just a “bleeding heart imagining he was mistreated.”) Actually that’s a good question, does anyone know the intended viewing audience for this show? is it gonna be like TV-14, or TV-MA?
–As an anon has now CONFIRMED, Tom Hiddleston has CHOSEN to contractually enter into this show. It wasn’t an obligation, he’s done his six out of six movies. This means Tom likes what he sees, and Tom has great integrity to the character. Since Chris Hemsworth sadly seems to have lost patience with the Loki fandom, this is why I also hope he really isn’t involved too much.
My only fear is that this is a consolation prize for Loki being “really dead” in the MCU movies, and that these will be “fill in the blanks” episodes taking place strictly while Loki is on the throne of Asgard, or in Sakaar, which means they’ll carry the sort of frantically neo-Dadaist tone of Ragnarok, in which Loki’s character doesn’t fare well. Again, I hope Tom’s enthusiasm for the role proves this wrong.

Loki’s almost imperceptible squint of quizzicality, though.

Asgard was always a people for Thor, because Thor and the sort of person Thor is, his life pursuits and passions, are included in the fabric of Asgardian society.

The same cannot be said of Loki, or at least of a Loki unassimilated into Asgardian culture, and rendered complacently mute.

I dunno if Tom slipped this past Taika et al, or if it was meant to just be Loki awe-pondering words that vaguely remind both brothers of Odin, but I’m choosing to read that little squint this way.

juliabohemian:

asgardiankingofmischief:

motherhela:

timetravellingshinigami:

beautifulterriblequeen:

mylokabrennauniverse:

I found this on Instagram and it’s true, I did watch it neither.

Fuente :

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpDA7qCA-q-/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1ht4cqp8s7ucn

I belatedly caught that too, in the wide shot. You can see both brothers, but Loki’s chest is heaving and Thor’s is not. That made me obsessively rewind.

Loki’s as close to crying, proper heaving sobs, as you’ll ever see. He never breaks, because he’s Loki. But yeah. His entire body’s grieving. He’ll never get a chance to go back and feel Odin’s love as it was meant to be.

Unless A4 gets really timey wimey.

Well, guess I’ll be spending this day in tears. Thanks a lot 😭😭😭😭

Also i guess that’s how Tom was playing this scene, and that’s why at the Comic Con he said that line about “realising the love of his father”.

Mhh, I already saw it when I watched the movie for the first time but I still don’t consider this as a real grief for the beloved father. I look at it from a psychological perspective. It’s a normal reaction to cry when you’re coming out of an extremely emotional situation where you found out another family secret, feel guilty cause you did something cruel and became something you never really wanted because then you are no different from the one person you rejected because of that. And suddenly this person seemed to show a kind of affection, something you had wished to get all your life. You don’t know if you’re surprised, deeply touched or just misguided. It’s a common reaction to feel something towards your „abuser“, it’s called Stockholm syndrome.

I don’t consider Loki’s tears as a grief over losing his father. But that’s of course just my point of view.

I’ve never noticed this before! :’O Honestly I’m kind of in between the two ideas, from the way Odin and Loki interacted in Thor 2011, I can kinda see Loki being like, despite everything they still loved each other, but Odin from the Dark World treated Loki like the absolute worst, so I think that would lend itself towards what @motherhela said.

Either way, tho, Loki crying is the worst feeling. 😢

As moving as this is, it’s really confusing when you consider the last time Odin saw Loki.

I’m going to agree with @motherhela. Loki is visibly upset because it’s an upsetting situation.

Loki was just recently ripped away from Asgard…after seeing (and being threatened by) Thor for the first time in years. He spent 30 minutes falling. Then he saw his dad again for the first time in years, only to find out that his dad is dying. Then Loki found out that he has a sister and that Asgard is on the brink of destruction. On top of all that, his cover was blown. So, he knew it would only be a matter of time before Thanos found him, which is probably why he was considering staying on Sakaar. I’d be crying too. Or vomiting. Or both.

As far as I’m concerned Odin’s “evidence of love” for Loki was too little, too late, and frankly only served to make Loki more conflicted (been there) by feeling obligated to return affection to someone who kept him at arm’s length at best for most of his life. Odin used Loki as a convenient chess piece in his extravagantly corrupt game of imperialist conquest. There is no better way to break a people than to take one of their own and assimilate that person into the dominant culture, giving them a case of, once they learn their true heritage, internalized racism that there is no evidence Loki ever got over.

Let’s also remember it’s in the context of Odin conveniently expiring right after telling his sons of yet another problem he swept under the rug and let fester, for them to later clean up with, among other things, their total lack of a sense of personal boundaries from Odin and from each other; Thor’s learned narcissism; Loki’s learned jealousy and paranoia; and a sibling who literally wants to kill them and destroy their world, specifically because she was fed the rhetoric of conquest, and then punished for acting on it too autonomously.

Odin does not deserve forgiveness. I am glad for whatever closure Thor and Loki obtained, but it was not with their father’s help.

Loki is crying here in good part because he KNOWS he will NEVER obtain true closure with Odin. He didn’t get a chance to say a word. And that’s agonizing for Loki, who communicates both intent and emotion with exceptionally nuanced linguistic routes, far more than with action.

And Thor, how Thor mistreats Loki (and vice versa) in the wake of Odin’s death, is ripe evidence of this. Odin’s spirit has barely dissipated before Thor is wrongly blaming Loki for his death: because it’s far less painful a case of cognitive dissonance to blame the “bad” little brother than the patriarch who was “all-knowing and wise” and metonymic of your entire home, society, and values (values that in crisis you will cling too all the more blindly and tenaciously).

oliveoaks:

So, this is Loki looking upset that his mother is running to his brother while also looking scared because Thor’s going to to kill him.

Congratulations Tom! You ripped out my heart.

I think it’s more disappointment and longing than fear. He had the briefest interval of legitimate reign to make his mother, and (psychologically abusive to both sons) father, proud, and he has just embraced his mother promising her to make good on that vow, when she (in Loki’s distressed and distorted perception) discards him for the “better” son. He looks first at her, then at Thor, which I believe betrays that line of thinking.

Either way, yeah. Still heart-ripping.

qui-lok:

A close-up look at Loki’s armour.

That’s probably Fenrir at the bottom and Jormungandr is absolutely on the vambraces.

Friendly reminder that before Thor: Ragnarok rendered Fenrir inexplicably Hela’s creation and not Loki’s, and used him as an excuse to show how awesome the Hulk is, this armor was a quiet ode to how Loki was reforging, both symbolically and literally, his identity in the wake of disowning himself of his toxic family, as of Avengers Assemble, probably, as we now know, after being under the creatively cruel control of Ebony Maw, and, by extension, Thanos.

I know it’ll never happen, but I really wish we could see Loki and Nebula interact (positively) in the MCU. They have so much in common and I think they could relate to each other’s struggles. Both were rejected by a father who favored their sibling; both “hated” their sibling and fought with them but eventually reconciled. (Although Gamora eventually realized than Thanos was a terrible father, while Thor, unfortunately, still seems to believe that he and Odin did nothing wrong.)

^^^^ Couldn’t have said it better in its totality myself. Nebula could even be like “that’s rough, buddy” when Loki confided to her that Thor continued to adulate Odin because it’s less painful of a cognitive dissonance for Thor to think Loki is the bad apple and Odin is the gruff but well-meaning patriarch.

There are stunning similarities between Odin and Thanos, particularly when you take into account Odin’s reign of “benevolent” imperialism, which was finally made explicit in Ragnarok despite all of Ragnarok’s narrative flaws. The only difference between Odin and Thanos is:
A) scale of genocide
B) Odin was a cunning pragmatist who knew he was wrong and concealed it systematically, and Thanos was a mad ideologue who fully believed his cause was noble and justified. Not sure which is worse, since the effects are the same: a lot of innocent people dead, and your own children totally fucked up.

shine-of-asgard:

kaori04:

icyxmischief:

He tried so hard here to get through to Thor.

I don’t understand how the narrative always posits that Thor is the only one who tries to reconcile. Loki DOES try to reconcile, but in LOKI’S way, as LOKI is able. Just because he can’t be the kind of good that Thor demands he be, doesn’t mean his efforts don’t count.

Even given the script he was given, you can see Tom trying so hard to show Loki straining to reach Thor but unable to succumb just yet fully to Thor’s idea of working together. Everything he posits here is logical and wise, but Thor won’t listen to it because Loki didn’t foolishly give up his bargaining position with the Grandmaster to be physically there. That, and somehow, it’s “Loki’s fault” that the Nine Realms fell into disarray and Odin became weak and died, when we know from TDW that odin was already on the brink of death both physically and spiritually once Frigga had been killed. People in the theater when I watched this AUDIBLY said “Oh, come ON” when Thor turned to Loki and blamed him.

All unclear thinking which can be partially explained by the fact that they’re both mourning Odin–especially Thor, who was closer to Odin–but because of the odd pacing of the film, the poignancy of Odin’s death was lost the moment the scene was over. So we’re left kind of puzzling over why Thor is being so petulant and pigheaded, when he has gone through four movies of growth now, and learned better.

Agh man I just. So much in this movie was JUST SLIGHTLY off and somehow it all added up to the movie being a weird parody of itself which the indie pop dada tone of the script doesn’t fully explain or justify.

Also this scene shows very well one of the main problem in their relashionship. Loki trying to reach Thor with his own ideas, thoughts, feelings. And Thor denies it instantly without thinking, cause it doesn’t match with his own perspective on things.

Basically Loki wants a brother who understands him, and Thor wants this perfect brother, his own half, who goes wherever he goes, thinks whatever he thinks, always by his side.

That’s I think also one of the reasons why Loki learned to manipulate so well and why he prefers this type of communication. Cause it always worked better.

#Hammer Drop

It also ties in the “I thought we would fight side by side forever” speech. Because it could be seen as heartwarming, but it also could be seen as Thor having no clue and no desire to learn what Loki thought or wanted and simply dragging him along into his fantasy life. Because the Loki of Thor 1 doesn’t look like he even likes physical fighting, but of course Thor would fail to notice such a basic detail about his own brother.

This scene used to make me angry at Loki but now I’m just sad. Sad that Frigga felt personally slighted when Loki disowned himself of Odin (who disowned him first). Sad that she felt she had to emotionally coerce him into picking both parents or neither. Sad that Loki had to stand his ground even when he knew it would hurt his mother.

@juliabohemian every time I try to reblog your posts Tumblr won’t let me, but I know you don’t have me blocked so this is a strange conundrum indeed. Anyway you posted something that just circulated my dash and I spent a while making an addition, so here it is:

Not to compound your heartache, but I’ve been writing about this stuff since 2012 and it’s even worse than that.

The entire Thor narrative has brought Odin’s family full circle back to where they began in 2011′s first film. I mean this in terms of filial dynamics and discrete roles within a dysfunctional family structure. Not only is Loki still always the responsible party for everyone’s missteps and crimes, the “progress” that the family has made is actually a regression that reinforces his scapegoat role.

This is why when others are endlessly celebratory about the moment in Infinity War during which Loki refers to himself as “Odinson,” I cringe.

Because Loki WAS allowed a redemption, in Ragnarok, and then, in Infinity War: but one contingent upon Thor’s, and, by extension, Odin’s, idea of what connotes heroism (and, even though Mjolnir is long gone, “worthiness”). Loki became a hero when Loki stopped having his own thoughts about what to do after Hela’s invasion, when he stopped having ANY healthy notions of self-preservation, and when he followed THOR’S plan to defeat Hela. ONLY when Loki emulated Thor did Loki become a hero. The one thing that has always driven Loki to lack inner peace has been incessant negative comparison to Thor. So it’s only in an extremely toxic message of SELF-ERASURE that he completes the Thor films’ narrative of “healing” and “redemption.” Just like when Odin imprisoned both Hela and Loki under Asgard, to ritually erase them both from the fabric of his family tree, only FAR more subtle and insidious, by giving him NO OTHER OPTION FOR LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE BY HIS SOLE LIVING FAMILY MEMBER (Thor) EXCEPT TO “CHOOSE” TO STAND AND FIGHT (AND DIE) AT THOR’S SIDE.

Loki is only granted redemption when Loki IS NO LONGER LOKI.

And the freakiest part about this is that the broader Marvel audience has accepted this as “evidence” that Loki “was a hero all along” and it is the ONE THING that has made fans lighten up on hating him. The story stuffed Loki, who is a marvelous gray-amoral antihero, in a hero box–and not just ANY HERO BOX, but the box labeled “ultimate self-sacrifice in death, even against characterization and logic.”

Think about it.

–What was Loki in Thor 1? A passive receptacle for Thor’s warmongering and impulsivity, who must “shut up” and “know his place” at all times, whose plans to divert Thor from a disastrous place on the Throne were thinly veiled by the “heroes” as “treason” and “a whiny jealous younger brother’s petty vendetta.”

–What was Loki in The Dark World? A prisoner Odin and Thor genuinely hoped the world would forget, whose inconvenient truths about mirroring his father and brother’s warmongering on a protected (translate: already “owned”–claimed by Thor as “his” because of Jane Foster) territory of Asgard (Midgard) got him thrown in prison for life. Odin was angrier that Loki brought up these truths of Odin’s hypocrisy than he was that Loki tried to take Midgard as his own. Because unlike Thor, Odin couldn’t control Loki’s cognitions and beliefs. He never could. And when was Loki released from prison? Only when he became useful to Thor. A passive receptacle, being retrained as such, being told his mission basically to escape Thanos’s abuse with Midgard as a consolation prize was basically just a “childish tantrum” for which he should be gaslit and punished. And when was Loki forgiven? When did Thor weep for him, and say he’d take memory of his noble deeds to their father? ONLY when it appeared he had made a self-sacrifice in extremis, and was dying.

–What was Loki in Ragnarok? A traitor and a laughable clown. How dare he lay around eating grapes and watching theater that craftily reinvented his image to a previously disdainful populace? How dare he SURVIVE? Thor is angrier at Loki for surviving, seemingly, than he is relieved! Simply because Loki didn’t die for him, so of course, to Thor, it’s tantamount to another betrayal, it can’t be anything in between total self-effacement and total selfishness: it isn’t all about Thor, God forbid! Loki must be again a passive receptacle! How dare he cunningly outwit all of that lifelong conditioning to be silent and obeisant? So Thor acts juvenile, and emotionally strongarms Loki (yep, electrocution scene) and refuses to speak to him, and unfairly blames him for Hela’s return (WHEN IT’S ODIN WHO RAISED HELA TO BE A MONSTER AND THEN IMPRISONED HER! but if you’re groomed to be a narcissist by your father and emotionally dependent on your father’s praise then you can’t turn on your father, EVER) untilllll? Loki shows up with a ship from Sakaar and fights on Thor’s behalf.

“If you were here I’d give you a hug” translates to “If you would only abide by MY rules for what connotes a good person (cause after all Thor knows best, right? ‘That’s what heroes do!’) then I’d reward you for it.” And the whole movie ends with Loki going “I’m here” which is tantamount to saying “I YIELD.”

PASSIVE. RECEPTACLE.

Ergo Odin remains the benevolent all-controlling patriarch.
Ergo Thor remains the petulant narcissist who always gets his way.
Ergo Frigga, dead, is more absent from stopping the toxicity than ever, because fridging!
Ergo, Loki remains the silent scapegoat.

Seven. Years. Of films. And counting.